2Tall
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Maryland
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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2013 3:02:49 PM
cheapest
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dooberdoof17
Sophomore Author
Chicago
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Message Posted: Mar 18, 2013 10:53:45 AM
well that does it for me, i know im only one guy with one family of drivers and it will make no difference at all. But now we are all going to go out of our way to never fill up at a Sunoco.
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redx590
Sophomore Author
New Jersey
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Message Posted: Mar 16, 2013 5:47:54 PM
shell
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gas_phil
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Sacramento
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Message Posted: Mar 13, 2013 7:40:56 PM
Anything on the Taco Bell menu that says "supreme" means "premium unleaded"!! :)
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PithyOpiner
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Stockton
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Message Posted: Mar 13, 2013 6:10:40 PM
Taco Bell produces the best gas in my humble opinion. It's dependable and aromatic. I get good mileage out of it.
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Jef4ers
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Dayton
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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2013 1:52:31 PM
All gas is gas. Some that have had their engines quit may disagree with that statement.
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RAB2010
All-Star Author
Kalamazoo
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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2013 10:23:26 AM
It depends on where the fueling station gets its fuel from. Not all Shell fuel is Shell fuel, for example. There is a station that I know of that purchases some of their fuel from the local Shell supplier. And they purchase some of their fuel from an alternate source. So, grading brands is difficult in at least some instances.
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mandydonnaprinc
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Hamilton
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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2013 6:42:41 AM
sunoco for the 12002 time!
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metalhat73
Veteran Author
Wilmington
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Message Posted: Mar 11, 2013 9:28:17 AM
BP only. Green is a go.
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bigdan390
Rookie Author
Cleveland
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Message Posted: Mar 11, 2013 9:07:38 AM
The cheapest.
Gas is basically gas. It comes out of the same pipeline. Difference is in what additives are added locally/regionally. And that is not a big deal to me. Price is more an issue.
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mandydonnaprinc
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Hamilton
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Message Posted: Mar 11, 2013 6:58:14 AM
sunoco
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travelzonecente
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Riverside
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Message Posted: Mar 10, 2013 9:42:21 PM
Once again ladies and gents.. GAS IS GAS... Yes their are many brands but GAS is GAS stop buying the hype.
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Jef4ers
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Dayton
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Message Posted: Mar 10, 2013 12:01:59 PM
Nice discussion, Cheapguy! Been interesting! Even if you are a 'jersey boy' No offence on that!
Now about that Port Reading in your area? I hear that facility has generated potential operators but that Hess is going to scrap it. Whats your take?
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cheapguy135
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New Jersey
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Message Posted: Mar 10, 2013 7:14:50 AM
Jef4ers...." The majors don't want that crap at their certified stations.......so where does it go?"
What exactly is a "certified" station?Where does it go? It gets re-refined. Indepemdent station are not dumping grounds for "stale gas", "crap", "transmix", or whatever other myths you're trying to perpetuate. On the rare occasion that substandard or contaminated fuel does hit the streets due to loading rack error or whatever, it is just as likely to land at a "certified" branded station as an independent.
"You probably have very spec. gasoline in your storage. Its only the 2% that makes the test not specific."
What?
[Edited by: cheapguy135 at 3/10/2013 8:15:21 AM EST]
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mandydonnaprinc
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Hamilton
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Message Posted: Mar 10, 2013 6:50:20 AM
sunoco
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Jef4ers
Rookie Author
Dayton
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Message Posted: Mar 9, 2013 12:12:24 PM
Its a good thing that you brought this up CheapGuy, alot of folks don't understand the relationship between octane and altitude. Yep, no reason
to pay more than is needed.
Actually the old Solar (sohio) refinery is in Lima. Dayton is just a general geographic point. Our refinery is looking to utilize more of the rougher crude from up north(after upgrade) but mainly likes the taste of sweet from Texas.
From the begainning of our conversation, it was stated that some gas is of better quality and better economy than others. All refineries even those within the same business model have to tweak their process due to many variables (Usually source of crude). Some gas provides better results in different parts of the country due to refinery, altitude performance, and other factors such as how old the ethanol is at time of blend and then how old is the blended fuel at the pump. Most modern gasolines store fairly well under proper conditions even in excess of 90 days. Occasionally somewhat stale fuel and contaminated fuel get into the delivery system. The majors don't want that crap at their certified stations.......so where does it go?
98% of the time, gasoline delivered to independents is of extremely high standards and some of it gets the majors additive package in addition to the mandated high or low octane and detergents.......but usually does not get the majors proprietory additive package.
You probably have very spec. gasoline in your storage. Its only the 2% that makes the test not specific.
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mandydonnaprinc
Champion Author
Hamilton
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Message Posted: Mar 9, 2013 5:50:35 AM
sunoco
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cheapguy135
Champion Author
New Jersey
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Message Posted: Mar 8, 2013 2:29:39 PM
Jef4ers......."For areas above certain levels, they get an altitude blend adjusted for pressure concerns and performance."
The "altitude blend" you mention is simply reduced octane (85). That alone addresses "pressure concerns and performance". Lower atmospheric pressure reduces O2 which reduces the need for antiknock compounds (octane).
"If I go to the mountains and buy 87 Octane fuel....are you saying that to help my car have the performance necessary on the uphill, that the station s going to fill my tank with a fuel with higher octane or a lower octane than I am paying for?"
Never said that, but as your vehicle gains altitude, it requires less and less octane to prevent detonation. Octane levels are required to be posted on all dispensers so you'll get what you're paying for. Increased octane above that required to prevent detonation will not increase performance.
"Try the little ecobox test and you will find out that all that stuff the tanker driver and the terminal manager have been telling you is mostly correct but NOT all of it"
I don't listen to anything tanker drivers say, and I'm not playing "he said, she said" with you, but when you make blanket statements like you have since your first post in this thread, I will correct you, and I will back it up with plenty of factual links references. You have provided no backup or reference points for anything you have stated. I don't know what you do for a living to be offering up so much expertise on the subject, but it sounds like the only thing that qualifies so far you is a tour of the Husky facility out there in Dayton.
[Edited by: cheapguy135 at 3/8/2013 3:30:26 PM EST]
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Jef4ers
Rookie Author
Dayton
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Message Posted: Mar 8, 2013 12:38:31 PM
Cheap guy wrote:
No kidding, it's simply reduced octane (85), there's no magic in that and again, unbranded stations and branded stations alike get that, so your point is moot
I never mentioned Octane. Wondered when that was coming up? Octane retards detonation within combustion chambers. If I go to the mountains and buy 87 Octane fuel....are you saying that to help my car have the performance necessary on the uphill, that the station s going to fill my tank with a fuel with higher octane or a lower octane than I am paying for?
Many folks without scan Guages or flow/cpu/computers already prefer certain brands because they have found it to be better for their vehicle.
They already know what gives good economy without you and me doing a he said she said.
Try the little ecobox test and you will find out that all that stuff the tanker driver and the terminal manager have been telling you is mostly correct but NOT all of it
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sheba24
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Long Island
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Message Posted: Mar 8, 2013 6:04:52 AM
The cheapest one!!
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mandydonnaprinc
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Hamilton
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Message Posted: Mar 8, 2013 5:48:25 AM
sunoco
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pacecar68
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Oakland
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Message Posted: Mar 7, 2013 9:53:56 PM
all the same.
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streetirsx
Veteran Author
North Dakota
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Message Posted: Mar 7, 2013 5:48:56 PM
in my area is Shell
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cheapguy135
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New Jersey
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Message Posted: Mar 7, 2013 5:00:09 PM
Jef4ers...."Simple, that there is a noticeable difference between the gasoline that independents get and the gasoline that is certified for majors."
As I told you already, I am an independent, and I get name brand fuel, with the exact same additive package in the exact same concentrations as what you refer to as fuel "that is certified for majors". I just can't market that fuel under that particular brand name because there is no reseller agreement and I am not bound to buy fuel only from one brand. At the refinery level, there is NO difference between fuel bound for branded or unbranded stations. Branding happens at the loading rack and the base fuels (around here RFG 87 or 93 octane) are completely interchangeable from brand to brand. You really have no clue how this works, do you?
"Couldn't be easier. Even without a calculator, the difference in performance will be noticeable between the independents gasoline and preferably Shell."
No it won't, you're not conducting an experiment or research, you are merely enforcing your own pre-conceived notion with gut feeling. It's meaningless.
" For areas above certain levels, they get an altitude blend adjusted for pressure concerns and performance.
Do you order altitude fuel?"
No kidding, it's simply reduced octane (85), there's no magic in that and again, unbranded stations and branded stations alike get that, so your point is moot. And no, I don't order "altitude fuel"...I'm at sea level...refineries around here make two gasoline products....87 and 93 octane, everything else from that point forward happens at the loading rack. That is where ethanol and additives are injected and that is where branding happens. One more time, at the loading rack, both independents and majors get an additive package that is mostly detergents. One is proprietary, and one is generic. They are both highly diluted. Neither one makes any difference in mileage. Get it?
"These additives are very powerful and must comply with what the EPA wants and demands."
Those additives only have to have the minimum detergency levels mandated by the EPA. Both unbranded and branded gasoline have to meet those requirements. The rest if fluff that the EPA doesn't care about and it has nothing to do with what they "want and demand". Silly
.
"highly toxic industrial chemicals"
If you know they're highly toxic, you must know what that magic pixie dust contains....why not share it with us?
[Edited by: cheapguy135 at 3/7/2013 6:02:48 PM EST]
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Jef4ers
Rookie Author
Dayton
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Message Posted: Mar 7, 2013 2:34:50 PM
Cheapguy wrote:
Exactly what is it you're trying to "solve"?
Simple, that there is a noticeable difference between the gasoline that independents get and the gasoline that is certified for majors.
I offered you a tour.
Here we go again...cheapguy wrote: The "experiment" you're describing is absurd "
The only thing thats absurb is your refusing to park that truck and try a small eco car and prove it to yourself.
Easiest way, is just take the economy car out for few hundred miles.
Couldn't be easier. Even without a calculator, the difference in performance will be noticeable between the independents gasoline and preferably Shell.
Another thing that you will want to dispute is that the majors recognise the need for increased performance for areas that are not necessarily mountainous but rather hilly....so their stations get that blend. For areas above certain levels, they get an altitude blend adjusted for pressure concerns and performance.
Do you order altitude fuel?
Cheapguy also wrote:
"that pixie dust doesn't change that, ESPECIALLY at the concentrations that are being added to base gas."
The Cocentrations do not need to be high. These additives are very powerful and must comply with what the EPA wants and demands.
There are several inexpensive things that anyone can do to feel a noticable difference in driveability and economy even without
highly toxic industrial chemicals. I would guess that many here at gas buddy already are aware of a few of these...
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dooberdoof17
Sophomore Author
Chicago
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Message Posted: Mar 6, 2013 3:59:23 PM
why can't we all be as helpful as mandydonna and post sunoco 12,000 times!?!
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Livoniaman1961
Rookie Author
Detroit
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Message Posted: Mar 6, 2013 3:04:21 PM
I'm a strictly an Exxon Mobile, Shell, BP or Marathon man. If I lived in Texas, I would by Texaco.
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cheapguy135
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New Jersey
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Message Posted: Mar 6, 2013 1:11:07 PM
Gee whiz Jef4ers.......what's it gonna take?
Out of curiosity, are you another back yard tinkerer with a long history of buying conspiracy theories and wives tales or are you one of those petroleum chemists? You're still completely oblivious to the big picture here.
Yes, alot has happened to gasoline refining in the last 100 years because it's only been around about a hundred years, about the same as the vehicles it powers. Aren't you just kind of pointing out the obvious?
You said.."Actually at one time but not now, the petroleum industry wanted to sell economy enriching gasoline due to the poor MPG fiqures of almost everything."
Actually, at one time, some industry players advertised that their brands provided more mileage per gallon and they were immediately slapped down and made to stop....and that was when what you were buying was actually produced by that particular refiner. These days gas is a completely fungible product, in a particular region with a particular formulation, it has a particular BTU content and that pixie dust doesn't change that, ESPECIALLY at the concentrations that are being added to base gas. I know you really, really want to believe that it does, but there is no mileage Santa Claus or economy Leprechauns....sorry. The mileage myth between brands has been disproven over and over again.
"Now the economy of the IC motor vehicles has improved so much that the objective is to sell more fuel if possible....alcohol aids in that objective today."
So you're saying the only reason we have E10 is because refiners want to sell more fuel?
" Keep in mind that all majors still want a little edge that the consumer recognizes."
That's why they advertise their flavor of pixie dust...it's the only thing that differentiates an otherwise identical product. And that Invigorate, Platformate, Techron, Tiger Tail Dust, Nitrogen Bubbles, or Whateverate doesn't change mileage one iota. And it certainly doesn't just because you took a Geo down the road for a relaxing drive.
" I know you like Sunoco and thats fine......"
I receive Sunoco, BP, Hess, Valero, ConocoPhillips, Gulf, Motiva, and various unbranded fuels and have no preference for Sunoco. They all come out of the same tank and the differences in their individual additive packages are meaningless to me and I can assure you it's the same for whatever vehicle you're driving. The "experiment" you're describing is absurd and has no basis in reality, there are no controls, no strict measurement, too many variables, etc. It's nothing more than casual gut feeling. Maybe you're going uphill/upwind one way, downhill/downwind the other way, I don't care, but it's not science and to draw conclusions from it would be ignorant on anyone's part.
"argueing about semantics and spelling will not solve any of this"
Exactly what is it you're trying to "solve"?
[Edited by: cheapguy135 at 3/6/2013 2:13:55 PM EST]
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Jef4ers
Rookie Author
Dayton
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Message Posted: Mar 6, 2013 12:30:42 PM
Cheap guy the offer still stands to badge you thru the Husky facility as soon as some restrictions are lifted or if you are as you claim "a part of this industry".....then its no problem.
There still are chemical combinations and even single chemicals that do increase performance and economy in most vehicles.....even increase effeciency of heating oil. They aid combustion even with E10 blends.
Without alcohol added, good gasoline can be made better for economy.
Seriously, do you believe that the chemists and techs. just are assigned mundane tasks in petroleum research? Alot has occured over the last 100 years regard to what constitutes gasoline. Performance of fuels could be far greater today if it were not for the addition of mileage negating and fuel degrading alcohol. The majors have been doing this a long time and some of ther fuels do get a little of what you called 'fairy dust'. Actually at one time but not now, the petroleum industry wanted to sell economy enriching gasoline due to the poor MPG fiqures of almost everything. Now the economy of the IC motor vehicles has improved so much that the objective is to sell more fuel if possible....alcohol aids in that objective today. Keep in mind that all majors still want a little edge that the consumer recognizes. Anyone can see the difference albeit just a few MPG.
Its simple.....let the excursion sit, borrow someones GEO, Cruze eco or even a Focus se. Take a relaxing drive (about 150 miles on a midwestern Interstate) with an emphasis on economy, keep good records and a calculator. Fill up one way with the stuff you use if its Speedway, union or Clark etc. Keep records. On way back, fill up with a good Major such as Shell, Exxon, Chevron etc. The change in economy will not be astronomical but it will be noticeable.
Seriously, cheap guy, I know you like Sunoco and thats fine......argueing about semantics and spelling will not solve any of this.....take the test and report back. I have.
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5p33df73ak
Sophomore Author
Gary
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Message Posted: Mar 5, 2013 2:44:55 PM
BP
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cheapguy135
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New Jersey
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Message Posted: Mar 5, 2013 2:22:21 PM
Jef4ers again states...""The refiners have known about performance boosters (economy chemicals) for a very long time. They have came up with several 'botique' fuels recently that would help auto manufactures meet the 35MPG requirement".
That cheap guy, refers to a 'botique fuel' designed and formulated by the REFINERS NOT the botique fuels that the EPA discusses in regards to the clean air act.
Let's try this one more time......first of all...it's B-O-U-T-I-Q-U-E, not botique. Refiners never just "came up with several 'botique' fuels recently that would help auto manufactures meet the 35MPG requirement".
Never, ever...boutique fuels refer to only ONE thing in this business,and you are obviously NOT a part of it. I know what you would LIKE it to mean as you've mentioned several times, but that simply is not the definition. What you need to say at this point is something like...."gee, I heard the phrase "botique fuels' somewhere and assumed it had something to do with refiners, manufacturers, and mileage...because I thought it helped me prove my point and I could fake everyone out into thinking I knew what I was talking about. But as it turns out, the phrase "boutique fuels" actually refers to fuels that are produced to meet overlapping air quality standards mandated by the feds and states in various regions....nothing more, nothing less".
Stop forcing your definition into something that is an industry standard. If you don't believe it, ask someone in the industry, find me one "refiner" who agrees with your definition. Find me one link that agrees with your definition. Find me one link that agrees with your spelling of "boutique". Otherwise, drop it and move on. Stop making stuff up to fit your argument.
And when you're done with that, maybe you could give us all some examples of "economy chemicals".
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Jef4ers
Rookie Author
Dayton
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Message Posted: Mar 5, 2013 1:47:24 PM
Read what I wrote:
"The refiners have known about performance boosters (economy chemicals) for a very long time. They have came up with several 'botique' fuels recently that would help auto manufactures meet the 35MPG requirement".
That cheap guy, refers to a 'botique fuel' designed and formulated by the REFINERS NOT the botique fuels that the EPA discusses in regards to the clean air act.
Specialized is the key word! (designed, trained, or fitted for one particular purpose)(highly differentiated especially in a particular direction or for a particular end) ....in this instance, its performance.
Transmix has always been a concern but is being controlled better.
Some major supply problems have been brought to light but some others just get shipped to independents or if there happens to be a S.N.A.F.U.- the majors own retailers get the stuff, Have you ever got a load of transmix? Read On!
"With BP having recalled 2.1 million gallons of bad regular gasoline in Chicagoland and NW Indiana and 20,000 gallons of premium gasoline limited to the Milwaukee, WI market, many have asked what happens to the tainted fuel?
It depends on what exactly contaminated the gasoline or fuel. BP has said it is due to a "higher than normal level of polymeric residue." No matter what contaminated the gasoline, there are multiple options and names for the processes to reclaim and re-use the gasoline. If water entered the gasoline, a separator is first used, separating the fuel from water. Sometimes the contaminated fuel is considered "transmix".
It's a really cool process that already exists. After crude oil is refined, it is turned into many usable products, such as diesel, kerosene, gasoline, heating oil, etc. These products are many times shipped in pipelines together. See the image for more information. Some products can mix with comparable products, which is normal. Some products, like heavier fuels and lighter fuels (think diesel and gasoline), can't mix. On occasion, pipelines use a device called a "pig" to separate the fuels that don't mix. Most of the time no pig is used, {ain't that professional} and part of the batch being shipped will mix. Any mix between incompatible fuel types is called "transmix". Transmix is not just discarded, but sent back to a reprocessing plant to be refined and re-certified for use so there is no waste." Courtesy Gas Buddy
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FocusFree
Veteran Author
Ottawa
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Message Posted: Mar 5, 2013 7:38:22 AM
They are all the same
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mandydonnaprinc
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Hamilton
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Message Posted: Mar 5, 2013 6:41:33 AM
sunoco
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paullypuiu
Veteran Author
Georgia
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Message Posted: Mar 4, 2013 9:42:29 PM
shell for my truck
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tdioiler
All-Star Author
Detroit
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Message Posted: Mar 4, 2013 8:57:51 PM
It's not the brands, it's the tank at the station, the tank in the delivery truck and where the fuel came out of the pipeline in relation to the pig.
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Rich3153
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New Jersey
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Message Posted: Mar 4, 2013 8:25:24 PM
Exxon
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Boyrr
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Allentown
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Message Posted: Mar 4, 2013 1:03:28 PM
the cheapest brand
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Texacoguy
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Tampa
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Message Posted: Mar 4, 2013 9:37:39 AM
..I LOVE the clueless posters that think that they know how things actually work...lol
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Texacoguy
Champion Author
Tampa
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Message Posted: Mar 4, 2013 9:36:38 AM
Cheap guy, I concur with you on the branded/unbranded issue. Furthermore, when I operated both a Texaco and an unbranded location in NJ a few years back, I had numerous instances where my jobber was pulling fuel from RIO off of the Motiva (Texaco) rack in Newark for the unbranded station.. That fuel came on a Texaco/Motiva bill of lading as well, but was clearly an unbranded product, as opposed to my Texaco location's fuel that would show it was brand product.
[Edited by: Texacoguy at 3/4/2013 10:37:02 AM EST]
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cheapguy135
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New Jersey
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Message Posted: Mar 4, 2013 7:19:04 AM
Jef4ers states......"just remember that a botique fuel is actually a specialized fuel, one that meets a particular purpose. Your definition is one that relates to all the different state requirements that can hamper production and add to confusion another is the use of specialized fuel especially formulated to increase fuel economy."
Actually, no. It is as was stated in my post and there are hundreds of links indicating the same. I cannot find one link even implying that a boutique fuel "is actually a specialized fuel, one that meets a particular purpose". As hundred of links indicate, it's the sum of many fuels that meet many different purposes, depending on the region and the air quality in that region, but always to do with state rules and air quality....nothing to do with refiners and fuel mileage as your definition indicated. Here is your original statement:
"The refiners have known about performance boosters (economy chemicals) for a very long time. They have came up with several 'botique' fuels recently that would help auto manufactures meet the 35MPG requirement".
Perhaps you can post a link with ANYTHING indicating that even one definition of a boutique fuel is "the use of specialized fuel especially formulated to increase fuel economy". Nobody in the business I've spoken with has ever heard of that, nor can I find it on the internet.
Hope this helps clear it up:
http://www.afpm.org/policy-position-boutique-fuels/
http://enviro.blr.com/environmental-news/air/motor-vehicle-fuels-and-fuel-additives/Update-on-Boutique-Fuels/
http://www.drivingthenation.com/?p=588
as far as the statement....."
I have seen independents and a few majors get ahold of Transmix to save a few bucks. You do not want that in your tank regardless of the engine. Outside of fuel economy concerns the transmix and old fuel that some independents bought was a major concern for years and is now being watched more carefully."
Of course one wouldn't want "old fuel" or transmix in their tanks, but as far as being "a major concern for years"...where? what companies? were they caught and fined?...........and "now being watched more carefully."
? by whom?
I think it's an infinitesimally smaller problem than you're implying.
as far as.... "All gas is not the same anymore than all milk comes from grassfed holsteins."
Milk and gasoline are two different commodities, and your car can't taste the difference between brands.
[Edited by: cheapguy135 at 3/4/2013 8:25:47 AM EST]
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Jef4ers
Rookie Author
Dayton
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Message Posted: Mar 2, 2013 12:15:37 PM
Well glad you cleared that up.......just remember that a botique fuel is actually a specialized fuel, one that meets a particular purpose. Your definition is one that relates to all the different state requirements that can hamper production and add to confusion another is the use of specialized fuel especially formulated to increase fuel economy.
The debate is not about which brands can increase fuel mileage by huge amounts but rather which brand is thought of as best, best quality, best additives, best economy and whether some majors are actually better.
Anyone out there driving economically, keeping accurate records or has vehicle fitted with an accurate computer can relate. Now granted if you want to claim that all gasoline runs thru a Excursion or Hemi 250 Ram, sure it does without much change at all with regards to economy. But even with the big heavy vehicles there are always things that can improve mileage if that is a concern.
Most of us, are here at this site to help each other save money at the pump, there are some trying to protect their brand and others here for all sorts of reasons.
Now in my opinion for no other reason....I have seen independents and a few majors get ahold of Transmix to save a few bucks. You do not want that in your tank regardless of the engine. Outside of fuel economy concerns the transmix and old fuel that some independents bought was a major concern for years and is now being watched more carefully.
All gas is not the same anymore than all milk comes from grassfed holsteins.
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SprintManVA
Rookie Author
Virginia
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Message Posted: Mar 1, 2013 8:26:55 PM
to me the brands are all the same
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Z12
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Toledo
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Joined:Mar 2011
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Message Posted: Mar 1, 2013 8:10:49 PM
Any of them
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paullypuiu
Veteran Author
Georgia
Posts:263
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Message Posted: Mar 1, 2013 7:56:24 PM
shell
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patino007
Sophomore Author
Dallas
Posts:203
Points:71,205
Joined:Mar 2013
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Message Posted: Mar 1, 2013 6:42:51 PM
I just put it wherever its the cheapest
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cheapguy135
Champion Author
New Jersey
Posts:1,122
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Message Posted: Mar 1, 2013 6:09:30 PM
Jef4ers.....I really have to clear a few things up for you...
1)what you are referring to as "botique" (boutique)fuels, were not formulated by refiners as a way to help manufacturers improve mileage, as you stated, but were the result of a combination of federal requirements and some flexibility the feds gave the states to tweak those requirements (not the refiners). The resulting various regional formulations are referred to as "boutique blends". It has everything to do with regional air quality and not mileage. Here is an EPA link explaining it further:
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/fuels/boutiquefuels/index.htm
2)you stated..."We all know that certain things are no longer linked on the web and the difference in gasoline is one of them."
Who could have done that? Why? Could it be that there simply is no provable mileage difference between brands or proprietary additives/generic additives and it's just marketing? Do you really buy into the conspiracy stuff?
3)you stated...."The refiners have known about performance boosters (economy chemicals) for a very long time."
That doesn't answer the question "what are they?'. What if someone told you that the bulk of any additive is simply detergents, the rest is a combination of proprietary pixie dust and chemical tracers that allow refiners and distributors to track their product through distribution channels all the way down to the retail level in order to keep everybody honest? So if we know that the bulk of any additive is just detergents, and the concentration levels (as you stated) can be as little as 1 pint to 4000 gallons, that leaves a fraction of a pint to 4000 gallons of gas for those tracers, pixie dust, and "economy chemicals". Just what do you think is in that amount of "economy chemicals" that can change mileage from one brand to another when added to identical base gasoline?
Here's more on that subject:http://www.stopbuyingcrap.com/stop-buying-crap/brand-conscious-buying-3-gasoline/
4)you stated......."At the terminal, a pkg of additives goes into the tanker that is destined to specific major certified dealers. The next tanker gets exactly the same gasoline only WITH the additive(detergents octane etc) reqired to meet standards NOT the full pkg. Both tankers will show on the bill of laden that the fuel came from say Sunoco.......but one has the full pkg. and the other does not."
I think what you are referring to is proprietary vs. generic additives. While it is true that a Sunoco terminal can sell unbranded gasoline with a generic additive package, they can and do sell their proprietary additized gasoline to unbranded locations like mine, and I have plenty of bills of LADING from BP with quantities of "Invigorate" that are identical to their branded locations, also from Sunoco, Exxon, Mobil, Valero, Motiva, Hess, and others. In some cases I also receive "unbranded" product with generic additives like "HiTech" from the ConocoPhillips terminal and NuStar. The Sunoco terminal can also sell other brands simply by injecting the other guy's proprietary pixie dust while loading through mutual exchange agreements.
It has less to do with "branding" than you think and more to do with distributors moving enough product to satisfy their buying requirements with a particular refiner. They care less about where it goes than what is on those bills of LADING that help them make their numbers. So don't assume you're buying some kind of substandard product because you drive into an unbranded station. BTW, all refiners reserve the right to substitute product at will and still sell it as their proprietary brand. That means they can sell product with another brand's additive packages, generic additives, etc., and call it their own, it happens more than you think.
5)you stated....."The next tanker gets exactly the same gasoline only WITH the additive(detergents octane etc) reqired to meet standards NOT the full pkg."
Octane is not added at the loading rack like an additive package. Although ethanol can change octane levels, they are refined into gasoline. 87 octane regular comes from a different tank than 93 octane super. The octane level is not determined at the rack.
[Edited by: cheapguy135 at 3/1/2013 7:10:48 PM EST]
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travelzonecente
Champion Author
Riverside
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Message Posted: Mar 1, 2013 11:04:00 AM
Gas is just like MILK... Many brands, flavors.. but at the end MILK is MILK
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Jef4ers
Rookie Author
Dayton
Posts:98
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Joined:Feb 2013
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Message Posted: Feb 27, 2013 12:24:43 PM
I wanted to add something else about best Gas. At the terminal, a pkg of additives goes into the tanker that is destined to specific major certified dealers. The next tanker gets exactly the same gasoline only WITH the additive(detergents octane etc) reqired to meet standards NOT the full pkg. Both tankers will show on the bill of laden that the fuel came from say Sunoco.......but one has the full pkg. and the other does not.
Another thing that has happened in the past and recently with BP in the midwest is that somehow thru deceit or accident the Transmix was not returned to the refinery but rather some dealers actually sold it as motor fuel ie the midnight sludge hauler. This used to be the stuff that some independents bought during the night to supplant their certified shipment.
That practice is now under scrutiny. But still be aware!
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Jef4ers
Rookie Author
Dayton
Posts:98
Points:2,300
Joined:Feb 2013
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Message Posted: Feb 27, 2013 12:13:29 PM
Hi Cheapguy,
The refiners have known about performance boosters (economy chemicals) for a very long time. They have came up with several 'botique' fuels recently that would help auto manufactures meet the 35MPG requirement. Ethanol requirements put a hamper on some of these fuels along with govt. meddling.
Almost all performance additives are propriatory and closely restricted from the public. A few such as Chevrons Techron is sold as a cleaner at the retail level but at the refinery lab its also part of the performance pkg. The retail product is weak and a detergent. One pint treats 20 gallons. Refinery grade chemical is rated about 1 pint per 4000 gallons.
One performance additive that has a reputation akin to mothballs is actually available at Home Depot. It is used low ratio, relatively safe and does help. AND CHEAP.....sure you like that.
The other additives that I am aware of are too toxic in concentration for home use except for the Hydrogen boosters. Hope that helps.
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